INTRO / PRE-SHOW MESSAGE

TONY: Hey everyone, this is Tony. Before we start today's conversation, I want to give you a quick heads up. At the very end of this episode, I'm going to share a piece of music that's very close to my heart—my newest hit song. If you've ever seen those four words on every coin and every dollar in the US, hearing them in a song gives them a whole new weight. So stick around to the very end. I can't wait for you to hear it.
Welcome back to the podcast. You know, entrepreneurs spend a lot of time thinking about strategy, don't we? We think about growth plans, execution systems, and timing. But over the years, I've noticed that when things start to feel harder than they should, the issue usually isn't strategy. It's misalignment. You know, people make decisions that don't quite sit right at times. Teams lose cohesion. Success shows up on paper, but clarity doesn't always follow, and often leaders can't immediately explain why.
That's where today's conversation fits in. Robert Glazer is a leadership expert and bestselling author who has spent years studying how core values actually function in real life—not as slogans or aspirational language, but as practical guides for decision-making. Robert approaches values as operating principles, you know, the kind that influence who you hire, how you lead under pressure, and what trade-offs you're willing to make as things scale.
He also challenges why many commonly stated values don't work, and why leaders don't realize that they really are out of alignment, or maybe even just a little bit, until the consequences show up. We're going to explore how values shape leadership behavior, how to recognize when something is off, and why clarity at this level matters more as responsibilities and complexity increase.
Check this out. If you're leading people, if you're building something long term, or you're navigating decisions where the right answer isn't always obvious, this discussion is going to offer a thoughtful lens worth considering. Let's dive in. Let's go. Bring him on the show.

INTERVIEW – PART 1 (THE BACKSTORY)

TONY: Hi, Robert. Welcome to The Tony D'Urso Show.
ROBERT: Tony, thanks for having me.
TONY: And you set the table perfectly there.
ROBERT: Oh, that's great.
TONY: Because, you know, I'm very interested in why great leaders don't drift. I don't think I've ever heard that facet or that angle before. I've talked a lot about leadership over the years, and a lot of some of the things that we've talked about in terms of clarity. I've done a lot on clarity. And I'm curious, before we get into that, I'd like to know a little bit more about you. How did it all start for you, Robert? What's your backstory?
ROBERT: Ah, you know, it started with a mother and a father and they got married. Uh, no, my story is, I think, typical. I've heard similar versions myself. I think I was a very creative, energetic, later diagnosed A.D.D. kid, and as a result I didn't like coloring in the lines. And a lot of the systems that I was in told me "You need to be better at coloring in the lines." And so I didn't really realize that I like to learn because I was bored about what I was learning. I was constantly being told I wasn't meeting my ability level.
There's some report cards I show when I present. I mean, they look like the same thing every year. They use the word "capacity." "I think he has more capacity. I think he's not doing—" I just really wasn't interested in the things we were doing. And so eventually that clicked. I figured out, you know, a passion for business and marketing. And I think that, you know, I ended up writing a book on building capacity and I talk a lot about, particularly in the context of values, how a lot of passion and pain are pretty tied together in terms of what you value.
And so for me, really, I think that those decade-long time of, you know, being told I wasn't living my potential—that sent me into sort of overdrive for the next ten years, kind of overdoing it. And then eventually, you know, realized I had a passion for helping people figure out their values and unlocking their capacity and meeting their potential. So I don't think that is a coincidence.
So I built a few different companies, built a few different organizations, the largest of which is a global partner marketing firm called Acceleration Partners. But as I was building those companies, I kind of leaned into writing and found it was a good way to differentiate both my team and the industries and started talking about the things that we wanted to do differently as a company, as a culture. And we had won over thirty Best Places to Work awards and eventually exited that company on a day-to-day basis and started writing more and talking about leadership and sort of unpacking some of the things that we had done and getting passionate about this topic of values.
After building a course and seeing how people at our company evolved their leadership as part of our leadership development by figuring out what it is they valued and how to lead more authentically. So that's where I spend a lot of my time these days. I kind of work with companies and leaders, and my new book, The Compass Within, which has been the most successful to date, really dives into this whole aspect of personal core values.

INTERVIEW – PART 2 (THE IMPORTANCE OF CORE VALUES)
TONY: Robert, I'm really interested in this for several reasons, but one is when I was growing up, it was all about—let me use the word, maybe it's not been used before—I call it heavy capitalism. It was just make money any way you can. It just didn't matter. It was make money. And that was the core value back then—was just how are you going to make money? Just make it. And you may find it hard, especially for some of the younger generation, that they work that way. But yes, it was. Though it seemed on the surface that there was more of a care value, but really underneath it was just all how much can you make and how fast can you make it? And this is the companies that I worked for.
And when we throw in core values, it's sort of like, well, it's nice, it sounds good. Maybe it sells, maybe it brings in investors, maybe it brings customers in. But some of us—I believe you're in that group—believe it's extremely important to have a really good core value. But there are some of us that were just after money. So not me. I'm just—others. So let's dig in. Is it important? Why is it important? What about high performers who are just trying to make a buck any way they can, no matter how they make it? I just kind of want to understand what's misunderstood, what's overlooked, and just kind of really dive into that.
ROBERT: Well, let's separate two things. So there's company core values. And look, most companies have made a mockery out of these. And you can read the same Dilbert things everywhere. But when you see these really great companies who have these differentiated values and live by them, and the behaviors are rewarded, and you really start to understand how that is the backbone of a company's culture. So there's company core values, and they're saying, "Look, these are the few things that we all agree to. Around here, we have to have some common principles that we agree to and some red lines." And that's the company.
But individuals also have core values. And obviously people are trying to line up their core values to a company's core values either intentionally or on purpose. And that's a little bit different. And to me, that shows up in your leadership style and how you lead. Whether you want to or not, you kind of lead from those values.
So like the money comes out of probably those things. You might have someone who grew up in scarcity, right? And they have a value to always provide. And the problem is every strength is a weakness. And so they developed this core value to be a provider or a protector. And then they just don't know how to stop and they overdo it. And so what they were good at was making money and taking care of people. But then at some point it became a liability.
So there's a deeper reason that sits behind the thing. Money and achievement are a scorecard. And it's like, what do you—I mean, I said before, you know, I clearly had some angst—isn't the right word, but I had some about being an underachiever and then became an overachiever. So there's a lot of this stuff going on. And I think if you sit down with people and try to get to the root of what it is and why it drives them, you can maybe get to some more healthy behaviors.
TONY: Very interesting. We're speaking once again with Robert Glazer. We're talking about values that scale. We're talking about why great leaders don't drift. We're just starting to get into it and you can find out more and get his new book at RobertGlazer.com. Robert, we know how to spell that. Glazer is G-L-A-Z-E-R dot com. RobertGlazer.com.
Robert, is there a point—you just talked about it, you may have touched on it, but is there a point where you realize, I guess the best way to say is that values aren't just personal, but they're foundational to leadership? How do we work with a company that has their values, but we have our own values? I've run into trouble with that, working on companies that had different values that I didn't feel were quite right against my values. Let's kind of dive into that.

INTERVIEW – PART 3 (ALIGNMENT & DRIFT)
ROBERT: So yeah, everyone's super interested in the alignment. And I think a lot of times we make a core values decision. The analogy that I use is imagine you have a sports car and I take it in a tunnel, a dark tunnel, but I can see to the other side. But the lights are off in the tunnel. I'm going to drift to the right. I'm going to hit the wall. It's going to make a horrible sound. I'm going to pull it back to the middle. I'm probably going to overcompensate. I'm going to go to the other side. It's going to make a horrible sound. I'm going to get to the end of the tunnel and I'm going to get out of it. But the car's going to look like crap. It's going to be all beat up.
I think that's how a lot of us operate with our core values. We kind of know like, "Oh, that was bad. I got to get away from that." And then I hit the other side. It's kind of like if you were in a field and there were electric fences, but you couldn't see them. Right. And so, but the goal would be like, I don't want to get electrocuted. And so I say like, if you have clear articulation of those values, which most people don't have, it's like turning on the lights in those tunnels, seeing the white line, which is your value, not crossing it and hitting the wall.
So the first thing before you have alignment, you have to have clarity. So you need to understand your own values and not in a one-word platitude way, but in a deeper way. And there's a formula for this in the book. And then you can start saying more clearly, "Oh, this is why this boss and this company doesn't work for me, and this is why it never will." But you need to have that clarity on your own side of the house.
And so this is probably a good time to get some definitions right. So what are core values? And I'm talking about personal core values. They're the non-negotiable principles that guide your behavior and decisions. They're not the only things you value in life. It's just the top ones, the most important.
So importantly, they're intrinsic, not aspirational. They reflect who you actually are, not who you want to be. This is a huge struggle for people. They kind of feel like it's a marketing thing, or they don't want to say like, "I'm a skeptical person" when that is a strength for them and that being skeptical is actually one of their values.
They're consistent. They show up across all areas of life—work, relationships, and personal decisions. And they're clarifying. They help you make better decisions about what work to do, who to spend time with, where to live, etc. So that is the definition of what I would call an actionable core value.
And if you take the "I know when I hit the wall" versus "I know where the lines are," you can start to be more intentional and understand environments that are going to work and not going to work. I have had multiple people who've read this book and done this work. They haven't told me about divorces or breakups, but they've told me about leaving companies and moving and changing environments and really having that realization around I'm not aligned in what I call the big three, which is your partner that you choose, if you choose one; your vocation, which is the type of work you do or where you choose to do it; and then your community, which could mean where you live or where you spend your time or who you interact with.
Without core values alignment, I don't think those things will survive in the long run. And when you're talking about your big three—who your partner is, where you live, and where you work—the more you make those decisions—so sorry, the less right you make those decisions and the more you keep having to make them, generally, the worse it is.

SPONSOR BREAK – SHOPIFY
TONY: You know, what Robert just described here is something that every entrepreneur eventually experiences. When decisions start piling up and every choice feels reactive, it's often a sign that something deeper is out of alignment. Leaders who operate from clear values don't eliminate hard decisions, but they do reduce the number of unnecessary ones. They know where the guardrails are, and that's true in business as well. The clearer your systems are, the fewer fires you have to put out every day. Which brings me to one of the partners that helps entrepreneurs simplify the operational side of building something meaningful. Let's take a quick moment to thank our sponsor, Shopify.
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All right, we're back with Robert Glazer. Just before the break, we were talking about how strong leaders reduce decision fatigue by operating from clear core values instead of constantly reacting to situations.

INTERVIEW – PART 4 (NAVIGATING MISALIGNMENT)
TONY: As I'm thinking through this, even for business owners and entrepreneurs where you think you don't have a boss—well, you have pressure. You have the industry, you have the subs, you have agents that work with you, you have needs, you have their needs and your needs. So there's a point where those personal values can become confused or cloudy. And yet you're almost in a compromising position sometimes. I guess that's the best way to say it. So whether you work for someone else or you work for yourself, you're going to run into things where it wouldn't be the right way, but maybe you can make some money at it. So how do you navigate through that?
Now I've got my take on that, but I wanted—you know, you've got this very good book, The Compass Within, on how to navigate through this. So I kind of want to dig a little bit more into that because I think it's a very important topic, whether people realize it or not. It's extremely important for our future out here.
ROBERT: Look, short term we're all not going to be aligned with things and things that we have to work for. But generally, if you try to stay long term to something that is counter to one or more of your values, you're either going to feel a little bit each day like someone's knocking you on the head, right? Or you're going to push that all down and subjugate it and say, "I just got to hold my nose and do it." And then my experience is that blows up spectacularly a month later, you know, when it's kind of like steam that you're trying to hold in.
So I've given people this advice similarly, like, "So if I realize I'm out of alignment, should I quit my job?" And I'm like, "Well, maybe you should decide to quit your job, but not quit it yet," because you might have a core value of "take care of those around me." And actually putting your family in financial harm would violate a value that maybe is even higher up for you than the value that's frustrating you about your company. But just even making that decision could be helpful. Like, "I'm not gone yet, but I understand that these people don't match my values and I'm going to move on."
So we all can't have that. There's the realities of the world. This entire subject is a—and I don't say it, but it's a first-world privilege problem. There are plenty of people who have to wake up and stand in front of a machine and just do whatever they can do to make money. And then I think those people then leave work and try to figure out how to connect to their values.
But we all can't have that Jerry Maguire moment, even though we may wish for it sometimes. So yes, certainly there are pragmatic considerations, but if you know these things, you can start thinking about how to redirect some of your time. You can change your volunteer activities, you can ask for different projects at work. There's a lot of things that you can begin to do outside of just quitting.
TONY: You know, years back, I was in that exact same point. I'm not going to mention too much about it, but I was in that exact same point and I made the decision, you know, of what I felt was right. And it changed my life. It changed everything. It actually was a little bit of an adverse change, but eventually it became a lot better. Though you don't think that way at first when you kind of walk away from what you think is a good deal.
ROBERT: Well, let me double-click on that because I think you highlighted something that's really important. Core values decisions usually cost you something. They cost you a relationship, a job, money. They are harder up front and in the moment, but they age like a great wine, right? And shallow decisions that are trying to just get through the day, they age like cheap vinegar, right? Where you made it and you stopped the Twitter mob of the day, you stopped the thing of the day. But over time, that decision looks worse and worse and worse, you know, and you can't really stand by it.
But let's not pretend that core values decisions are free and they're really hard to make when it goes in the face of the way that the current's going. And if your values are going with the current, you don't get credit for making that decision, right? You know, if everyone's quitting something and you decide to quit, like that's easy.
The people that are standing by their values—look, I am not a fan of either political party in our country right now, but I appreciate the candidates, like Liz Cheney or otherwise, who take a stand against their own side and it cost them. Like that's hard. It's much easier just to go along.
But you know, when you walk away from six, seven digits, yeah, it can be devastating. And those that may depend or look on you don't understand. You're now like a big zero in front of them. And you don't think that you're going to be good wine later. You think right now you're the worst vinegar, but you just know that it was the right thing and that there's a better way to do it. So it becomes very, very tough, even though it can and it does. You don't think about the future that way, that it's going to get better. But you kind of just know it's right.
TONY: And for you, you may have touched upon this, I'm wondering, is there a point where you realized that your values aren't just personal, but they're really foundational on who you are as your business and what your business is going to do?
ROBERT: Look, the values are pretty hard-coded by the time you're twenty. And there's a reason for this. Like our moral intuition forms before our moral reasoning and judgment. You learn what you like and what you don't like and how to survive. And it just becomes an intuitive sort of way of living.
And so if you start a company, it's not surprising that you're going to intentionally or unintentionally try to align with your values, find people. I don't think a company's values should mirror the founder's values because you're trying to find some commonality, but there's going to be a lot of dotted lining and there's going to be a lot of rhyming. I mean, why would you want to start a company that's not in the image of what you believe in? The whole notion of that seems strange.
TONY: Yeah, it starts off that way. But once the company grows or you have partners or you have other investors or other people that have a say-so, it starts to change. And if you don't watch it, there comes a time where you go, "I didn't sign up for this. This is not what I started. This is not the core value. This is not me. What do I do?" And it's a really, really tough spot. And, you know, we hear these words—"Oh, yeah, you know, character and integrity." But it's really, really, really tough. What do you do when you're in that kind of situation? You know, what are some of the points? If there's someone in the audience here that is in a tough spot or tough bind where things aren't the way that they want—we hear these stories all the time, big names—but the founder says, "This isn't the company I started."

INTERVIEW – PART 5 (THE BASECAMP EXAMPLE)
ROBERT: Yeah, well, I'm about to share an example. You know, as a member of YPO, we always talk about "in my experience," but I'll share an example. So Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson, two founders of Basecamp, super popular project management software company, they're known for doing everything against the rules. They wrote a book called Rework. They didn't raise VC money as a tech company. They were remote early on. They kind of worked in a totally different way.
And in 2022, at the sort of height of the social justice fervor and movement, they became despondent that politics were taking over their fifty or sixty person company and they didn't really want it. And they said, "Look, there can be no politics here. You can be political, do what you want. But there's no politics in our internal channel. We're not talking about politics at work. We find it divisive."
And it was a personal core value—we're about bringing people together. We just find this divisive. And they looked at each other and they said, "Look, this wasn't like a corporate game. If this is how it's going to be, let's close up shop. I don't want to come to work and live this way."
And so this was before Elon Musk bought Twitter and Twitter was whipped up in a cancel culture mode. As soon as they announced this, everyone called them—they were going to be on the wrong side of history. They weren't taking any political stance. They were saying, "We don't want politics at work. You could do it elsewhere. And if you don't like that, we're happy to help you find a job elsewhere and give you a severance package." This is where we—a software company. This is what we want to spend our days doing.
Well, the world came after them. Friends told them, "You're going to be on the wrong side of history," you know. Fast forward three years. Company's still profitable. No investors, record amount. Happiest employees they've ever had. As soon as they survived the initial people leaving, they had ten times the amount of employees applying to work there that wanted to work somewhere where there wasn't politics in the work. And the friends started calling them years later, the friends whose companies probably performatively waded into a lot of politics and social justice stuff, let their product fall off the map and got themselves in a mess, called them and said, "You know what? We were totally wrong."
And so in the moment, Basecamp wasn't sure if it was going to survive. Three years later, Basecamp is absolutely thriving and having the best years of its life, where I would argue a lot of companies who waded into this mess are not. And so that to me is—I interviewed David Heinemeier Hansson. He's a spectacular entrepreneur, and he's like, "Look, I just decided we'd rather shut it down than it become this political ideological—but it's not what we were. It's not what we started the business on. It's not what our customers were on." Nothing on it. And so that's a stand, you know, that's a values-based stand.
TONY: Totally get it.

INTERVIEW – PART 6 (DEFINING EFFECTIVE VALUES)
TONY: Let's talk about the specific criteria that makes a value effective. What are the qualities that separate real values from like empty words? Let's kind of dig into that.
ROBERT: Yeah. So I talked about the intrinsic, consistent, and clarifying. Once you get to the—if you walk through the process. So the process I have starts with answering six behavioral-based questions. And that's kind of how it all starts. And that's in the book. If you want to see all those questions, you go to RobertGlazer.com/six and I have them all listed out.
So this is like—what non-working environments are you highly engaged? What quality advice do people come to you for? What would you want said about you in your eulogy? What really drives you nuts about people? And you're trying to answer all these questions and get a lot of raw data. And then there's a synthesis process.
The thing about my process that's pretty unique—what a lot of coaches who have done this work forever have said is what I have next is this thing called the Core Validator, and it's how do you get from a theme to an actionable core value? And that is, that is sort of really these four questions. So the first two questions are about do you have the right theme? And the second questions are—do you have the right label?
And so the first question is, can I use it to make a decision past or present? If the whole point of a core value is clarity, then the theme should be clear enough that you could make decisions around it. Like is it short term? Is it long term? Is it truth? Is it whatever? If it's amorphous enough that you can never actually use it as a decision-making rubric, probably not the right theme.
The one that people have the most fun with because we talked about, I think one thing that's really clear is like when a core value is violated, it doesn't feel really good. So this is the anti-value test. If you think about the opposite of whatever this thing is, does it drive you crazy? Strike a nerve? You know, Tony, if we were talking to one of your values and I invented an avatar and I said, "You're going to meet this person at a party and they're the opposite"—usually if I'm doing this live and I'm like, "How does it feel like talking to this person?" you don't even have to answer because I can see it in your face. Like it's a physiological reaction to your core value being violated because I'm inventing a personality that is violating your core values. So that's, do I have the right theme?
And then do I have the right wording? Is it a phrase or more than one word? One-word core values just don't meet the threshold test. And then could I objectively rate myself on it? Like, is it worded in a way where I could say, I'm doing this or I'm not doing this?
And if you pass all four of those questions appropriately, and I have a tool to help you do this, kind of a little GPT tool, then your core value is validated. It's clear that it bothers you. You can probably connect to where it came from. It's helpful in decision-making and you can objectively rate yourself on it. Most core values don't pass those tests, but these ones that do are inherently a lot more helpful.

PRE-INTERVIEW CONTINUATION MESSAGE
TONY: You know, that's an important point Robert just made. Real values aren't slogans. They're decision filters to help you see clearly when something fits and when it doesn't. And conversations like this are exactly why I enjoy bringing these discussions to you. Leadership isn't just about strategy or growth tactics. It's about clarity—understanding the principles that guide how you build, how you lead, and how you make decisions when things get complicated.
And before we continue, I just want to take a moment to thank you for being here. Your time and attention truly matter to me, and I appreciate you choosing to spend part of your day with The Tony D'Urso Show.
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All right, let's jump back in with Robert Glazer.

INTERVIEW – PART 7 (RECOGNIZING MISALIGNMENT)
TONY: And just before the break, we were talking about how real core values aren't slogans. They're decision tests that help leaders know what truly belongs in their culture. As I'm thinking with this, I'm wondering, well, okay, so we've got a leader and we've talked about how important these values are. I think we should talk more about why these values are important, but let's just stick with this one train of thought. How can they tell when they're out of alignment? Because, you know, as you talked about, influence starts coming in. It's slow. You know, what is that phrase—you put a frog in boiling water and you turn up the heat so you don't notice it at first. So after a while, you go, "Things are toxic here, or too political or too whatever. This is not the core value of the company." How can you tell when you're out of alignment?
ROBERT: It just doesn't feel good. Like alignment feels like you're in flow. It's easy. It's like that friend you haven't seen in five years, and you sit down and you have a drink and it's like right where you left off. And it's just so easy. Versus—I don't know—the relative of yours that has "in-law" in it where you sit down and you're like, "I just can't say one word before this turns into—" Like those are the—that's the difference of what it should feel like, right? It feels right or it feels like you want to fight it and you want to push against it.
Again, if we played that opposite test or did it, like you'll see that people are physiologically like, "No, I—" In fact, if I asked them, "What's something you really don't like, a behavior?" they'll start the sentence and even say, you know what, "Something I don't like," they get to the end of the sentence and they're like, "No, I hate that." And then you can see that their reaction changes where it's like, "No, no, I can't even pretend that it's—this really frustrates me."
TONY: I totally get you on that. And I'm thinking, you know, I think we all know people, at least I hope so, where they kind of—especially your friends—if they get into a situation like that, they'll tell you, you know, "I just don't feel—I'd like to move out or I'd like to get a better job or I don't like my company." You know, they start confiding in you and tell you something has changed so much that they don't like where they are. Things are out of—okay, so when you get to that point, you know you're really out of alignment. But is it—it's not necessarily your core values. It's the core values of what others have brought in or have influenced into your environment. And you have some control or no control—to some degree you have some control, but you still now you got to deal with it.
ROBERT: Yeah. And like I said, I'll keep saying it because these things are—once you have the clarity of why and which value is and what's going on, it's much easier to understand how you can make a decision or is it solvable or not. It's hard to have the alignment without the clarity. What you know is you're annoyed, but you don't understand why.
And when I'm done with work with these people and they have the epiphany and they have the language to say, "I'm frustrated because this environment acts like people are better than other people, and my core value is no one is better than anyone else. And I can see what's going to be fixable and not." And it just clicks. And again, it may not be able to do anything overnight, but there's kind of no hiding from—I was saying to someone yesterday in a totally different context, but you know, some sunlight is the best disinfectant, right?
And so I think when you have real clarity on this, you just know this is solvable or this is not solvable and it matters. Your core values are never in unison. They need to sort of be in harmony, but they can't be like opposite magnets. So I might have one opposite magnet with someone. I call that kind of a danger zone. And my wife and I have this around one area that we just have fundamentally different views, but we've learned to navigate that. But if I have four of those opposites and we have to spend all day navigating that, like I just believe that's too hard. I'm not saying you can't do it, but you're just gonna spend all day—there are things where you're like, "I know my inclination is this, but I need to suppress it because in this case it causes a problem."
You can do that with one aspect of your personality. If you have to do that with all aspects all day, it's like too much work. It's just like rowing the canoe up the waterfall. You can do it. It's just not super—it's good exercise. It's just not really like a great way to live.
TONY: Totally. You know, as you're saying this, not that this is part of this interview, but it's making me think of, you know, we know—I think we all know people later in life, they'll tend to talk about regrets. "Oh, I regret that I didn't do this or I regret that I didn't do that" because their core values changed or they didn't stay strong with their core values while influences came in. So I'm thinking that way as we're talking about it.
And while I want to go further down that road, I want to make sure one thing that our audience walks away with, and that is I really want to get a better understanding of what's in your book. How can it help us as entrepreneurs and business people? What can we learn from it? You've talked about different things, but I want to get—I really want to get this more in my head and better understood. What can we do? How can your book help us?

INTERVIEW – PART 8 (THE COMPASS WITHIN)
ROBERT: Yeah, I mean, the book is actually a parable. So it is a story about a young professional named Jamie who seemingly has everything but is running into some core value alignment issues in his big three and meets a mentor who helps him figure out these core values. And then he has to decide where he's going to make these changes in his life or not. And then you basically watch Jamie be coached and make these decisions. And then the book gives you the entire framework behind it afterwards—what we talked about, the six questions and the core validator and the synthesis and how to begin the same process that the character used to figure out their core values.
So the book is pretty short. It's about an hour and twenty minutes, but everyone who has read it has really said that they just see Jamie in themselves. Jamie is a mirror. Jamie reminds you of a conversation with the boss. It reminds you of a conversation with a past partner or a job, and helps you sort of see the issue as it plays out in real life and with real dynamics.
So that's—I think the book provides the—I was literally just at an event with a family member and they were like, "I read the book and actually my wife read the book. And it led to a whole discussion about our town. You know, she feels connected to the community and I don't. And why is that? And should we be moving and should we not be moving?" And so that's the sort of prompts I've had people write me from all around the world, and they've made changes to jobs and community. I'm sure they've made changes to relationships. They're probably not writing to tell me that, nor do I want to be responsible for that. But it really gets you thinking and it shows you through a story, and then it gives you the tactics if you want to do the work.
TONY: Robert, while you're saying this, I was thinking of these scenarios that we've talked about in our life. The one thing that really can help get past these points where you feel you're up against the wall, the rock and the hard place—"I don't like this way. I don't like this direction"—is getting a coach or a consultant or a mentor to go over and help you may be a good way to navigate where you feel you're up against the wall, and you're not quite sure what to do.
ROBERT: Yeah. Again, you got to do the two things. Where people have said to me, like "Where is the struggle with this?" One, everyone's looking for the quick fix. I mean, I spent six months on this and I've built a course and a book and a training and a GPT, and yet still people want the quicker fix. Like you got to do this work and you got to do it for yourself, but then you should put it out to the people in your world and your loved ones. Like, "Does this sound like me? Is this who I am?" And you should sort of vet that. And then I think you can get the help and support you need in different areas.
TONY: Got you. Robert, roger on that.

INTERVIEW – PART 9 (CONSEQUENCES OF IGNORING VALUES)
TONY: I'm thinking the one thing we may have touched on, but I want to make clearer, is there's real-world consequences that happen if you do ignore or violate that core value. You may think you're doing well. We've seen companies collapse and so forth. We've seen all sorts of stuff. I want to go over—if we don't pay attention to that and deal with it, what are the potential consequences or issues that could result from that?
ROBERT: Yeah. Look, good is the enemy of great. When something's really bad, we're willing to look for solutions. But, um, you know, I heard a story recently about someone who was in a comfortable position that did not align with their core values. And they kind of looked the other way because it was comfortable. And eventually it blew up and it's been a long recovery. And then they were associated with people and things that they didn't want to be associated with. And it's been a big hole to dig out of.
So by not sort of cutting the lucrative salary or whatever a year short, they've been dealing with the consequences of that for years after. And it's hard to explain away. So that's—like I said, it's almost inverse. If you don't take your pain up front, you often take more pain later. And if you take your pain upfront, it often gets better later. That's just been my experience because you're just confident when you do something aligned with your values.
But we all do this. We all fall into it. And for sure, the problem is when something is good enough and we don't want to rock the boat and we know there's a problem and we know this person's a problem. And if you choose to associate with people who don't share your values, and you do that for a while and then they do something horrible, uh, you know, you're sort of guilty by association in some cases. And depending on what happens and people are going to look at you and be like, "Well, you were with this person either personally or professionally. And clearly this couldn't have been the first time this happened."
So that is—I think that's where people get into the biggest trouble is sort of complacency. As you said, the money—I'm finally making the money I wanted to make. I want to do this. I know I'm compromising everything about myself, but I'm finally at this place and it's, you know, making this part of my life better. And probably that won't last.
TONY: Yeah, it makes me think of an analogy, which probably could be one of the worst analogies I've ever used, but it's a great concept. And that is I saw a video once of a person riding through a field on a motorcycle, and the tall grass was holding a very deep hole, and that person fell into it and got very hurt. And I'm thinking, that's what happens when you just think you're having fun. You're going through the grass. You're making the good money—six, seven or whatever digits, everything is great. But when that consequence comes and you don't see it, it's very hurtful.
But if you knew it was coming, that's the whole thing. You can deal with it a lot better. You still might get hurt, you still might fall. But at least if you know it's coming. And like it may be a bad analogy, but if you know it's coming, if you at least know you're sticking with your core and you know it's going to be bad for a while—I mean, I actually literally went through that myself quite some time ago and it was painful, but I was able to pull out and deal with it a lot better, I think, than if I just suddenly fell into the hole and got really hurt.
ROBERT: Imagine you're at a company and you know, and everyone's making a ton of money and you know something fraudulent is going on, right? So you either decide to become a whistleblower or pull the plug and man, you lose your job and that has consequences. But you roll the tape five years forward and people, you know, hear that you were the person that actually called out Acme Corp and the whistleblower and you have integrity, and that's probably going to help you get your next job. Versus you were the last one out and you had to explain that not only you were a leader there, but you didn't really know about the fraud and you didn't really—like you're going to be tainted and no one's going to hire anyone from that company.
So that's a very simplistic example. But I think there's variations of that that happen a lot. And where someone made a conscious decision to sort of look the other way versus kind of lean in and deal with it. And look, it doesn't work out great for whistleblowers, but I feel like somewhere—look, here's a good recent example. There's a young lawyer who after the Trump administration sort of went after law firms, which was blatantly—this is not a political statement—it was blatantly unconstitutional.
Like, you know, when they sort of went after any of the law firms and these are the top, brightest legal minds in the country, and they decided they were going to settle rather than wait for the Supreme Court because there was risk to clients. Right? Well, turns out, I think the firms that did that lost more clients in the end because the client said, "Look, we don't want a law firm that stands up to abuses of the law."
And there was a woman who wrote a memo and quit her job and had her own Jerry Maguire moment. And look, she might not work for the next year or two because of how she quit that firm, but I am guessing there are a whole bunch of people out there who will say, "You were a twenty-four-year-old, and you were willing to say that this was ridiculous when partners wouldn't and whatever. Like, I want to hire you. Like you're a person of integrity and I want to hire you."
TONY: Totally, I love it. Great. Great analogies there. Thank you for sharing that.

INTERVIEW – PART 10 (VALUES AS DECISION FILTERS)

TONY: Okay. We're entrepreneurs. We're business people. How can we use values as a filter when we're making decisions, when we're hiring? We got to make—we're looking at growth or trade-offs or whatever. How can we use that as our filter?
ROBERT: Yeah. I mean, if you have good company values, you're hearing those in decision-making in words. You have a core value—embrace relationships. And this is a true story. And you have a contract that entitles you to money where you didn't really get to earn it that month. You say, "Look, we should not charge the client this month. That is not in service of the relationship."
So in a corporate setting, you know, you have real core values if those words are being used when it comes to decisions, because what you're saying is these are the behaviors that we reward. So the answer is how is it used in decision-making? It is the decision-making. If you're actually, you know, reinforcing the right values.
Sometimes the values that are on the wall—look, Enron had core values of integrity, respect, and honesty or whatever when it was committing a big fraud. That is not how you got promoted at Enron. It was probably "move fast, break things and don't ask for permission," right? Those were the behaviors that Enron was valuing at the time. Those were the actual values, not the stated values.

OUTRO
TONY: Wonderful. Once again, this is Robert Glazer. We talked about values that scale, why great leaders don't drift. You can find him at RobertGlazer.com. Get his book, guys. I love it. Thank you for sharing this with us. It's a big topic, a big subject. And it really—I think it's bringing on an awareness. It's opened up my eyes even some more on some of these factors. I'm going to go listen to this again, go through this. Very good advice. I just want to thank you so much, Robert.
ROBERT: Thanks. And if you do a draft, if you do that work and do a draft of your core values under my definition, send it to me. I'd love to look at them and I'll give you my comments.
TONY: Oh, that's very good. Wonderful. Thank you so much.
Well, there you go, guys. That was absolutely great. I really am glad that Robert came on to share this with us. And if you like this, share this. Tell your friends about Robert and values and what we've talked about in some of the stories and the filters and the analogies. And I am certain that this is more of an issue and prevalent than probably meets the eye, than it probably is in the press. So you probably have some stuff going on right now. Get Robert's book, check it out, and let's help you with your scenarios.
And you know, wherever you're getting this, please follow the show. It helps to bring in more amazing guests for you. All right, let's use this and let's help you move on your journey to success. Thanks. Remember, just take action. Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds. So good seeds, do good deeds. And I'll see you on the next episode.
CLOSING SONG – IN GOD WE TRUST
TONY: And before we close today's episode, I want to share something special with you, something I mentioned at the start of the show. This is my brand new song inspired by four powerful words printed on every US coin and every dollar. You've seen these words your entire life, but when you hear them as a song, they carry a whole new meaning. It's called "In God We Trust." Here it is.
[SONG LYRICS]

Walking by a bus stop
Not even a book
Feeling everything is just plain old stuck
A dime on the ground, I held it to the light
What it said restored my sight
In God we trust, the words shine true
Guiding my steps in all I do
Through trials and storms I find my place
In God we trust, amazing grace
Yeah
I took the next bus, though my pocket had no fare
I told the driver my life with a humble prayer
He gave a smile and said, "Go on, son"
I knew then that my hope had begun
In God we trust, the words shined through
Guiding my steps and all I do
Through trials and storms I find my place
In God we trust, amazing grace
I found a diner with a crowd at the door
And asked the kind lady if I could do more
She smiled and said, "You can stay if you try"
With a dime in my hand I whispered on high
When the road feels heavy and hope runs thin
That coin reminds me where faith begins
One small coin, yeah, the truth so wide
In God we trust forever, my guide
In God we trust, the words shine through
Guiding my steps and all I do
Through trials and storms, I find my place
In God we trust, amazing grace
Forever we sing
In God we trust
Forever we sing
In God we trust
TONY: And that is "In God We Trust," the song that truly came to me as a gift from God. I hope you enjoy it and I'd love to hear your feedback. Thank you for listening and thank you for spending this time with me today. I hope this episode and this song gives you something meaningful to take with you. And by the way, this song is part of my very first album, which is now out. If you want to hear more of the new music, visit TonyDUrso.com/Music. That's TonyDUrso.com/Music.