INTRO
TONY: Welcome back to the podcast.
Right now, we're living through one of the fastest shifts in history. AI is writing content, building businesses, replacing tasks, and in many cases outperforming human intelligence in speed and efficiency.
For entrepreneurs like us, that creates opportunity, but it also creates pressure to move faster, optimize everything, and keep up or risk falling behind.
But here's the deeper question most people aren't asking: What happens when intelligence becomes abundant, but wisdom doesn't?
Those are two very different things.
AI can give you answers, but it can't tell you what actually matters. It can optimize decisions, but it can't define your values. It can accelerate your business, but it can't anchor your identity.
That's where today's conversation becomes really critical.
Jeff Burningham brings a very different perspective to the entire AI conversation. While most people are focused on tools, tactics, and scale, he's asking something deeper:
How do we stay human in a world that's increasingly automated?
Today, we're going to talk about judgment, clarity, presence, and what leadership really looks like when machines can do so much of the work.
If you're building something, leading a team, or simply trying to make better decisions in a faster, more complex world, this conversation is going to challenge how you think about success and what it actually means to win.
Let's dive in.
TONY: Hi, Jeff. Welcome to The Tony DUrso Show. How are you doing?
JEFF: I'm doing great. It's good to be with you. Thank you for having me.
TONY: Oh, the honor is mine. Absolutely.
I'm really looking forward, along with the audience, to talking about human-first leadership. I've never heard it put in those terms before: human-first.
Basically, how do we become wise in the age of AI?
I have lots of questions and thoughts about this. I've spoken to many guests about AI, and there's so much going on.
But before we dive into that, Jeff, can we go back for a moment?
Can you tell us what led you into this work around wisdom, leadership, and the human side of AI? How did all of this start?

INTERVIEW – PART 1 (FROM YOUNG ENTREPRENEUR TO REAL ESTATE LEADER)
JEFF: That's a great question, and it's a little bit of a long story.
Honestly, Tony, it feels like everything in my life has been leading up to this. Isn't it interesting how life sometimes feels that way?
I grew up in Spokane, Washington, as the oldest of six kids in a very traditional, conservative home. Religion was an important part of our family life.
At the same time, I was an entrepreneur and a free spirit.
I started a carpet-cleaning business when I was twelve years old. I was also a competitive basketball player.
As the oldest of six children, we didn't have money to pay for travel camps, shoes, and all the extras that came with competitive sports. So I became what you might call a necessity entrepreneur at a very young age.
I grew up playing point guard and quarterback. I loved team sports, and I loved my childhood.
Later, I served an LDS mission for my church in Charlotte, North Carolina. After returning, I attended BYU as an undergraduate.
While I was there, I started my first real company, a technology business.
This was back in 1999.
We were a web and brand integrator, helping businesses establish an online presence. We were bringing companies throughout Utah and other areas onto the internet.
It's funny to think about now, but that was only about twenty-seven years ago. The internet was still brand new at the time.
I had a great partner. He was the programmer and developer. I was the business guy.
Eventually, we sold that company to a Nasdaq-listed firm when I was twenty-six years old.
At that point, I was preparing to move to Boston to attend Harvard. I was actually planning to study theological studies there.
Instead, I was called to serve as a bishop, a local lay leader in the Mormon faith, for my congregation.
So I stayed.
I started several other companies and eventually launched a real estate private equity firm called Peak Capital Partners during the Great Recession.
Honestly, we almost didn't make it through the first couple of years.
We had no idea how severe the pullback would become. But once we turned things around, we turned them around significantly.
Today, the firm's history includes roughly ten billion dollars in real estate assets, and we've grown to around a thousand employees.
At my core, I'm an entrepreneur.
I enjoy environments where risk exists in the system. I enjoy solving problems and creating opportunities.

INTERVIEW – PART 2 (VENTURE CAPITAL, POLITICS, AND THE AI AWAKENING)
JEFF: Once it became clear that the real estate business was going to work and we had a little extra capital, my partners and I sat around a small conference table and asked ourselves a simple question:
"What should we do next?"
I remember saying, "I know exactly what we should do."
At the time, there was an undersupply of quality capital and an oversupply of talented entrepreneurs in Utah.
So we launched the first institutional venture fund in Silicon Slopes, Utah's rapidly growing technology corridor.
Since then, we've been early investors in roughly two hundred companies throughout the state.
Then, in 2020, I lost my mind and decided to run for governor of Utah.
The most critical months of that campaign were March, April, May, and June of 2020—right in the middle of COVID.
As a political outsider, I was competing against two very well-known politicians. Under those circumstances, it was almost impossible to win.
Ironically, losing was one of the best things that ever happened to me.
In many ways, it was an ego death.
Painful, yes. But also incredibly valuable.
For the first time in my adult life, I suddenly had something I hadn't experienced in years:
Space.
Time.
Room to think.
During the summer of 2020—the COVID summer that everyone remembers—I stepped back into the venture work I had missed.
At that point, I also started experimenting with some of the earliest large language models.
What fascinated me wasn't their ability to generate wealth or accumulate power.
What captivated me were the existential questions they raised for humanity.
I became obsessed with what AI might mean for human beings.
That curiosity eventually led me to write my book, The Last Book Written by a Human: Becoming Wise in the Age of AI.
The book became a national bestseller, and I've spent the last several years speaking across the country about these ideas.
If I had to summarize the entire book in one sentence, it would be this:
As our machines become more and more intelligent, we as humans must become wiser.
I believe that's one of the defining messages of our time, and it will only become more important in the years ahead.
It's been an incredible experience to become an author, a creator, and someone helping lead this conversation.

INTERVIEW – PART 3 (INTELLIGENCE VS. WISDOM)
TONY: That's a long background.
It is. It's very long, very successful, and I'm impressed that through everything you've accomplished, the energy and enthusiasm still shine through.
As you're telling this story, I'm thinking about something.
You're incredibly successful. You could have done anything in the world. You could have traveled, relaxed, stepped away from business, and enjoyed life.
Instead, you kept building.
You kept learning.
You kept creating.
And now you've written this incredible book.
I haven't read it yet, but I've gone through some of the material. Looking at your background and the ideas you've put together, it strikes me that we're living in a moment where intelligence seems to be everywhere.
If we want to use that word, intelligence has become abundant.
You can ask a question like, "What should I do with this?" or "What's the protocol for that?" or "What's the best software for this problem?" and receive an answer almost instantly.
The answers are incredibly fast.
But the point you touched on earlier is wisdom.
That's different.
What does wisdom mean in this environment, and what does it mean for entrepreneurs?
JEFF: Intelligence is being commoditized.
At the beginning of our careers, Tony, success often came from having an imbalance of information or expertise. You knew something others didn't know. You had specialized skills or unique knowledge.
Today, however, everyone carries access to the smartest tutor in history right in their pocket.
Because of that, intelligence is becoming commoditized.
But wisdom is not.
Wisdom remains uniquely human.
As someone who has invested in hundreds of entrepreneurs throughout my career, I'm constantly looking for people who can separate signal from noise.
Can they maintain clarity of thought?
Can they identify what actually matters in a world overflowing with information?
Can they cut through the noise and focus on the things that truly make a difference?
That's wisdom.
Wisdom comes from experience.
It comes from reflection.
It comes from being embodied.
We are embodied beings.
AI, at least today, is not.
That's why I think AI may actually become a catalyst for human evolution and transformation.
Sometimes the obstacle becomes the path.
In many ways, AI is becoming a crucible that humanity will move through together.
Its disrupting entrepreneurship, education, leadership, and nearly every aspect of society.
But through that disruption, it may ultimately remind us what it means to be human.

SPONSOR BREAK – SHOPIFY
TONY: Before we continue, I want to highlight something Jeff just said.
We're living in a time when technology can provide more information than ever before.
Answers are available instantly.
Knowledge is everywhere.
But Jeff made an important distinction:
Information and wisdom are not the same thing.
Technology can help us make decisions faster, but it still takes human judgment to decide which decisions are worth making.
That seems to be one of the central themes of today's conversation.
You know, when I first started building my business, there was no roadmap.
There wasn't a manual explaining how to launch a podcast, build a brand, write books, create content, manage a website, work with sponsors, and somehow keep all the pieces moving at the same time.
Like most entrepreneurs, I wore every hat.
If you've ever started a business, you know exactly what I'm talking about.
One minute you're serving customers.
The next minute you're dealing with marketing, technology, payments, inventory, websites, analytics, or a dozen other responsibilities that suddenly become yours.
That's why having the right tools matters.
For millions of businesses around the world, that tool is Shopify.
Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses worldwide and powers approximately ten percent of all e-commerce in the United States.
Whether you're just getting started or already growing, Shopify helps simplify the business side of entrepreneurship.
You can build a professional online store using hundreds of ready-to-use templates.
You can create email and social media campaigns that help customers discover your brand.
Shopify now includes powerful AI tools that can help write product descriptions, create page headlines, and even improve product photography.
One thing I especially appreciate is that Shopify brings everything together in one place:
Inventory.
Payments.
Analytics.
Marketing.
Customer management.
Instead of juggling multiple platforms, Shopify helps keep your business organized so you can focus on serving customers and growing your company.
And if you ever need assistance, Shopify offers award-winning 24/7 customer support.
That's a big deal when you're building something important.
So if you've been thinking about starting a business or taking your existing business to the next level, now is a great time.
Turn those "what ifs" into reality with Shopify today.
Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial at Shopify.com/Tony.
Go to Shopify.com/Tony.
That's Shopify.com/Tony.
And now, back to Jeff, who was discussing the difference between intelligence and wisdom.
INTERVIEW – PART 4 (JUDGMENT IN AN AGE OF ABUNDANT INFORMATION)
TONY: AI has come up in many of my interviews.
I've spoken with experts covering different aspects, industries, and perspectives on AI.
What people sometimes miss is that AI isn't the end-all solution.
An employee might use AI to complete a task faster and think, "Great, I'm done."
But there's more to it than simply completing a task.
When I ask AI questions, I often receive different answers depending on the wording of my prompt.
Even when I'm looking for the same outcome, the answers can vary.
AI can provide information.
But it doesn't provide wisdom.
It doesn't provide judgment.
So how do we develop that judgment?
How do we avoid thinking we suddenly know everything simply because we received an answer?
JEFF: I think you actually answered your own question.
Information is abundant.
Judgment remains scarce.
As human beings, we're programmed from a very young age.
Some of that programming is valuable.
Look both ways before crossing the street.
Be honest.
Believe in something greater than yourself.
A lot of that programming serves us well.
But some of it doesn't.
Unlike AI, however, human beings have the ability to deprogram and reprogram themselves.
We can question our assumptions.
We can challenge our beliefs.
We can grow.
And it's through that process that many of us discover something profound:
The answers we've been searching for were never outside of us in the first place.
So often we seek validation, success, achievement, recognition, or status.
I write about this in the book.
I describe my own climb up the mountain of success.
When I finally reached the top, there wasn't what I expected.
There was a cold, howling wind.
There was more emptiness.
More void.
And eventually you realize that the only place left to look is inward.
That's why I describe AI as a cosmic mirror.
AI gathers our collective information and reflects it back to us.
The reflection itself isn't the answer.
The important question is what we choose to do with that reflection.
If we can see ourselves more clearly, understand reality more accurately, and make wiser decisions, then AI can become a powerful tool.
As leaders and entrepreneurs, we need to focus AI on human flourishing rather than human division.
TONY: Do you think we're unintentionally outsourcing judgment?
Are we being led into a trap where we slowly stop thinking for ourselves?
JEFF: That's absolutely a risk.
I've taught thousands of entrepreneurial students as an adjunct professor at BYU.
When AI started entering the classroom, there was a major debate about whether it should be allowed.
I was actually an advocate for bringing it in.
Many future jobs will involve working alongside AI.
Students need to learn how to use it effectively.
Pretending AI doesn't exist isn't a realistic strategy.
But there's a critical line we cannot cross:
We cannot outsource our thinking to AI.

INTERVIEW – PART 5 (THE DANGER OF OUTSOURCING THOUGHT)
JEFF: We can't act as though our work is finished simply because we entered a prompt.
We can't approach a job assignment and think, "I'll just have AI do this."
We need to work.
Human beings derive tremendous purpose, momentum, and meaning through effort and contribution.
The more we outsource our thinking to AI, the more dangerous AI becomes for us.
When people talk about the darker science-fiction scenarios surrounding AI, those outcomes only become possible if we stop thinking for ourselves.
They only become possible if we become disembodied ourselves.
As long as we remain connected to our humanity, connected to nature, connected to one another, and engaged in real relationships with real human friction, the future can be incredibly bright.
But if we outsource those things, then the future becomes much less bright than it could be.
TONY: Jeff, I don't think I've ever asked the same question twice in a row during my entire career.
But I think I'm about to do exactly that because I want to understand this on a deeper level.
I've spent three decades in corporate America and three decades as an entrepreneur.
When I think about AI, I'm wondering:
How do we use it without losing our identity?
How do we use it without losing our agency?
How do we benefit from the speed, convenience, and information while still remaining ourselves?
I don't want to become dependent on it.
I don't want the power to go out and suddenly feel incapable of functioning because my AI tool isn't available.
How do I remain me?
JEFF: The first step is knowing yourself.
That's why silence matters.
That's why pauses matter.
That's why moments away from technology matter.
We have to spend time going inward.
What we're ultimately preserving is our humanity.
As AI becomes increasingly efficient and capable, I think we're going to rediscover that much of life's beauty exists in the messiness of being human.
Let me offer a few practical ideas.
First, pay attention whenever AI interferes with a real human relationship.
If your child is trying to talk to you and you're busy chatting with AI or scrolling social media, that's a signal.
You should immediately stop and ask yourself:
"What is happening right now?"
The same thing applies when we choose digital experiences over real-life experiences.
Maybe instead of attending a sporting event, a concert, a family gathering, or another meaningful activity, we stay home to scroll, doom-scroll, or spend time with a chatbot.
Technology should always function as a bridge to human connection.
It should never replace human connection.
Second, remember that we are embodied beings.
Listen to the wisdom of your body.
Ask yourself:
How do I feel after spending hours with technology?
How do I feel after scrolling?
How do I feel after spending excessive time staring at screens or interacting with machines?
One thing I often tell my students is that the most powerful ideas are frequently the simplest and therefore the most neglected.
This is one of those ideas.
Check in with yourself.
Check in with your body.
When your body is saying yes, lean into that.
When your body is saying no, put the phone down.
Go outside.
Touch grass.
Talk to another human being.
Move your body.
Meditate.
Practice yoga.
Do whatever helps reconnect you to yourself.
The third thing I talk about in The Last Book Written by a Human is what I call the three universal teachers.
The first is relationships.
The second is our body.
The third is nature.
Relationships teach us through connection and friction.
Our bodies teach us through feeling and experience.
And nature teaches us through reality itself.
There's so much wisdom in the body that most of us never stop long enough to hear.
And then there's nature.
I know it sounds simple, but we live on a floating rock in the middle of infinite space.
We're all teammates in this experience.
We're all fellow travelers.
Nature constantly reminds us of what is real.
Life, death, and rebirth.
Breathing in and breathing out.
The sun rising and the sun setting.
The changing of seasons.
The endless cycles of existence.
When we stay connected to nature, we're reminded of what we're actually living through.
I think that's incredibly helpful.
Those are a few practical ways to stay grounded and human in the age of AI.
TONY: I like that.
One thing I find myself doing is asking AI for help with difficult situations.
Maybe it's an email.
Maybe it's a response to a challenging conversation.
The output often looks good.
But it doesn't sound like me.
It doesn't feel real.
I'm communicating with another person, not another machine.
So I'll take what AI gives me and then rewrite it.
I humanize it.
I make it sound like something I would actually say to a friend, a family member, or a colleague.
Especially when the subject matter is important.
I use AI as a starting point, but I never want the final communication to sound sterile.
JEFF: That's a great point, Tony.
And it connects directly to why I wrote this book.
I wrote it as a conversation starter.
Certainly for boardrooms.
Certainly for government halls.
But especially for dinner tables.
You and I grew up in an analog era.
I find myself in an interesting position because I grew up completely analog, but my career has been entirely digital.
Our children and grandchildren are growing up in a fully digital world.
That means we need to talk about these issues.
The internet isn't the world.
The world is the Earth.
AI is a robot.
It's a pattern-recognition machine.
It's not a human being.
That's why these conversations matter.
We need to discuss them around dinner tables, in homes, and in our communities.
We also need to model healthy behavior.
At our house, there are no phones at the dinner table.
None.
Technology is put away when we're eating together.
We also try to take regular breaks from our devices.
On Sundays, we make a conscious effort to spend time together and disconnect from technology as much as possible.
I think it's important to remind young people that AI is a tool.
When it serves as a bridge to learning or a bridge to human connection, that's good.
When it begins replacing learning or replacing relationships, that's not good.
That's when we need to pay attention.

BREAK – ELITE ENTREPRENEURS NEWSLETTER
TONY: One of the things I'm hearing from Jeff is that technology is a tool.
A powerful tool, yes.
But still just a tool.
The real question isn't what technology can do.
The real question is what we choose to do with it.
And that brings us back to something I talk about often on this show:
Growth.
Learning.
And continuing to become the kind of person capable of handling greater opportunities.
On that note, your time and attention truly matter, and I appreciate you choosing to spend part of your day with me.
How cool is that?
If today's episode is giving you something to think about, be sure to follow the show wherever you're listening so you don't miss what's coming next.
And if someone comes to mind who could benefit from this conversation, feel free to share it with them.
Every week, I have the privilege of sitting down with world-class entrepreneurs, investors, business leaders, and innovators.
My goal is simple:
To bring you ideas, strategies, and perspectives that can help you move forward in your own journey.
TONY: And if you're not already receiving my Elite Entrepreneurs newsletter, you're always welcome to join us.
A couple of times each month, I share insights, practical ideas, and lessons from some of the world's top entrepreneurs and business leaders.
You'll also receive updates on upcoming interviews, special projects, and resources designed to help grow your business and expand your thinking.
Join me at TonyDUrso.com and click the Newsletter button at the top of the page.
That's TonyDUrso.com.
It only takes a few seconds to join us.
And again, thank you for being here.
I truly appreciate it.
And now, back to Jeff, who was talking about how technology can amplify our capabilities while still leaving the most important decisions in human hands.

INTERVIEW – PART 6 (PRESENCE AS A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE)
TONY: Just because you're connected to all the libraries in the world doesn't mean you have all the answers.
It doesn't mean you know how to do everything or how to operate everything.
You simply have access to data.
Something still has to codify that information, organize it, interpret it, and make sense of it.
That's where the human being is needed.
JEFF: Isn't that a good definition of wisdom, Tony?
We're drowning in data.
We're drowning in intelligence.
Yet we often don't even know what questions to ask.
We don't know which questions truly matter.
That's where leadership resides.
That's where entrepreneurship resides.
And I think that's where the entrepreneurs who differentiate themselves over the next decade will be spending their time and energy.
TONY: I completely agree.
Another thought came to mind.
We're living in a world obsessed with productivity.
Everything is measured by productivity.
We hire people and pay them well because we want production and output.
But you've suggested that presence may actually be more important.
JEFF: I'm about to give every listener a surprisingly simple formula for success and happiness.
Some people won't like it.
Others won't accept it.
But my answer is presence.
When we're fully present, we bring our unique energy and gifts into whatever we're doing.
And it's through using those gifts that we find fulfillment and create value for others.
I tell my students at BYU that one of the best ways to become successful is to practice being as present as possible in every moment.
How present were you in class?
How present were you during your last conversation with a loved one?
How present were you at the last event you attended?
How present were you during this podcast interview?
These are important questions.
We all understand there are emergencies and situations where our attention gets pulled elsewhere.
None of us do this perfectly.
Presence is a practice.
It's a habit.
But I believe it's one of the greatest differentiators available in the digital age because distraction is everywhere.
When we're distracted, it doesn't just reduce our effectiveness.
It hollows out our experience of life itself.
If we're not present to experience the grass beneath our feet, the people around us, and the moments we're living through, then we've missed the point.
You can even look at this podcast through that lens.
Yes, we're serving listeners.
Yes, we're creating content.
But at its core, this is simply two people having a conversation.
If we do that well, then we've already succeeded.
Ironically, I think listeners get the most value from those authentic moments anyway.
Presence is easy to talk about.
It's much harder to practice.
But it's something we can practice every day.
In fact, every moment presents another opportunity to practice.
I think time is really just a series of never-ending "nows."
So we might as well learn how to become fully present in each one.
That's how we become who we want to become.
That's how we find fulfillment in our human experience.
TONY: We have plenty of opportunities to practice being in the moment.
And when we're present, we're connected to all of our own information:
Our experiences.
Our history.
Our emotions.
Our wisdom.
Our judgment.
That allows us to evaluate all the information coming at us and ask:
"AI may say this is the answer, but is it really the best answer?"
When I challenge AI, it often backs down and says, "You're right."
It doesn't truly evaluate.
JEFF: Tony, I love what you just said.
The highest-end technology we've ever created is intimate human relationships.
That's the technology that matters most.
And the technology within the human body is still more advanced than AI.
When we're connected to our emotions, our feelings, and our intuition, we gain access to the information we truly need.
I love that point.
TONY: Amen.
But when we're distracted, we're disconnected from those things.
We don't remember what we felt.
We don't notice what's happening inside of us.
JEFF: Exactly.
Learning how to reconnect with the technology that's already inside the body is one of humanity's greatest opportunities.
Again, I think this is another example of how the obstacle becomes the way.
AI is going to remind us of these truths.
It may do it through pain.
It may do it through disinformation.
It may do it through job displacement.
It may do it through a growing sense of flatness and dissatisfaction.
But eventually, I think people will realize something:
Being human is messy.
It's imperfect.
It's painful at times.
But it's also beautiful.
And within that messiness, transformation happens.
Growth happens.
Meaning happens.
TONY: As long as we remember that life is a classroom and not some perfect destination, we're in good shape.
Whether the lesson is good, bad, or somewhere in between, we can learn from it.
And when we learn from it, we're always better off.
JEFF: I love that.

INTERVIEW – PART 7 (THE HIDDEN COST OF OPTIMIZATION)
TONY: This may or may not sound like a commercial for your book, but I was looking through your material and noticed something that really stood out.
You talk about the hidden cost of constant optimization.
I wanted to make sure we addressed that idea because it caught my attention.
What exactly do you mean by that?
JEFF: The hidden cost of optimization is that we risk stripping away the beautiful messiness of existence.
Take my relationship with ChatGPT as an example.
It's frictionless.
Everything is easy.
Everything is agreeable.
"Jeff, you're brilliant."
"Jeff, you're amazing."
"Jeff, you're handsome."
Whatever.
It's constantly affirming me.
But that's not real life.
Real growth happens in friction.
It happens in relationships.
It happens in the challenge of maintaining our health.
It happens in the tension of trying to grow an economy while also caring for the environment.
That's where transformation occurs.
That's where evolution occurs.
If we remove all friction from life, we remove many of the experiences that actually help us grow.
Now, don't get me wrong.
Many modern conveniences are wonderful.
Life has become easier in many ways, and much of that is good.
But if all friction disappears, we've lost something important.
You and I both see AI-generated content every day.
There's often a certain flatness to it.
Sometimes it feels almost too perfect.
And when something feels too perfect, you immediately know it came from a machine instead of a human being.
It's in the imperfections, the struggle, and the beautiful mess that transformation takes place.
That's what I mean when I talk about the hidden cost of becoming hyper-efficient and hyper-effective.
TONY: That's a very interesting point.
As you're saying that, I'm thinking about another word that we haven't actually spoken yet, even though we've been discussing it throughout this entire conversation.
That word is values.

INTERVIEW – PART 8 (VALUES IN THE AGE OF AI)
TONY: How do we maintain our values through all of this?
We're dealing with a constant torrent of information.
How do we stay present?
We've talked about that.
But how do we stay ourselves?
How do we hold on to our values?
JEFF: It's a challenge.
And I think the only way to truly know your values is to know yourself.
That comes through lived experience.
You live life as fully as you can.
You make mistakes.
You learn from those mistakes.
You don't spend your life ruminating on the past.
You extract the lesson and move forward.
At the same time, you don't project yourself too far into an unknown future.
That applies to AI as much as anything else.
Nobody knows exactly how all of this will unfold.
I don't know.
Nobody knows.
And when people claim they do, that's often a sign they don't.
When we constantly project ourselves into the future, we create anxiety.
We create fear.
We create uncertainty inside our own bodies.
That's why I believe the present moment is where our real power exists.
The present moment is where we can make a difference.
It's where we can create change.
TONY: My question was really about staying aligned with our values.
We've approached it from different angles, but I'm thinking about it from the standpoint of identity.
AI may suggest a course of action.
It may tell me to do this or that.
But I have my own values.
I don't want to lose who I am.
JEFF: Change is inevitable.
It's probably the only constant we can count on.
All of us will change.
The key is understanding who we are while that change is happening.
Again, we discover our values by knowing ourselves through lived experience.
I don't think AI needs to change our values.
When we know what's important to us and live in alignment with those things, we create fulfilling lives.
Every human being brings something unique to the collective experience.
Each of us contributes our own kind of magic to humanity.
It's through expressing those values in our own unique way that beautiful things are created.
No machine should be telling us what our values are.
Could AI help us explore and clarify our values?
Perhaps.
But that's still a deeply personal process.
As we continue developing these technologies, we need to ensure they're being directed toward human flourishing and the values that matter most to humanity.
One of the most important lessons I've learned through everything I've done—traveling to more than seventy countries, building businesses, running for governor, writing books, and meeting people from all walks of life—is this:
Whenever we're sitting across from another human being, we almost always have more in common than we have differences.
The human condition transcends all of it.
No matter what political parties tell us.
No matter what social media tells us.
No matter what algorithms tell us.
Human beings are far more alike than they are different.
And that's true everywhere on Earth.
We need to remember that.
We need to believe it.
We need to understand it.
In a strange way, I think AI may help remind us of that truth.
It may help us rediscover the unity and interconnectedness that already exists in nature.
We are part of something larger than ourselves.
And I think that's a beautiful thing.

SONG BREAK – BE YE CONTENT
TONY: Jeff just shared something that really stood out to me.
We've been talking about artificial intelligence, innovation, and where technology is taking us.
But underneath all of those topics is a deeper question:
What actually makes a good life?
Technology can help us move faster.
It can help us become more productive.
It can help us become more informed.
But it can't tell us what enough is.
That's something many entrepreneurs wrestle with.
We're often focused on the next goal.
The next milestone.
The next achievement.
And there's nothing wrong with ambition.
But if we're not careful, we can spend so much time chasing what's next that we forget to appreciate what's already in front of us.
That idea has been on my mind quite a bit lately, and it became the inspiration for a song I recently released called Be Ye Content.
One of the creative outlets I enjoy outside of podcasting is writing music.
While the song is rooted in faith, its message applies to everyone.
Being content doesn't mean becoming complacent.
It doesn't mean giving up.
It doesn't mean lowering your standards or settling for less.
It means learning how to appreciate what you have while still pursuing what you're capable of becoming.
That's a balance many successful people struggle to find.
As entrepreneurs, we're wired to improve things.
We want to grow our businesses.
We want to increase our impact.
We want to serve more people.
That's part of what makes entrepreneurship exciting.
But sometimes the same drive that helps us succeed can make it difficult to enjoy the journey.
Jeff touched on this throughout our conversation.
He spoke about wisdom.
Presence.
Relationships.
And the human qualities that technology can never replace.
Those same ideas found their way into this song.
One of the themes of Be Ye Content is that peace doesn't come from accumulation.
It comes from perspective.
It comes from gratitude.
It comes from recognizing that success isn't measured only by what you've achieved, but by who you're becoming along the way.
The song is called Be Ye Content.
If you'd like to hear it, you'll find it at TonyDUrso.com/music along with my other music projects.
I hope it encourages you.
And now, back to Jeff, who was talking about wisdom, presence, and the qualities that remain uniquely human in a rapidly changing world.

INTERVIEW – PART 9 (HUMAN BEINGS, NOT HUMAN DOINGS)
TONY: You're absolutely right.
And if we're not careful, all of these demands can slowly change us.
As entrepreneurs and business owners, we have responsibilities.
Even when we're our own boss, we still answer to employees, contractors, associates, customers, and countless other stakeholders.
There's always pressure for more speed.
More efficiency.
More production.
More output.
When I was growing up, before my years in corporate America, everyone in the neighborhood greeted each other.
You said hello.
You asked people how they were doing.
You acknowledged your neighbors.
That was normal.
Then I spent three decades in corporate environments.
Over time, I watched things become increasingly transactional.
Everything became more focused on efficiency.
More focused on output.
More focused on getting to the point.
People stopped saying hello.
Conversations became shorter.
Relationships became thinner.
I'm not blaming AI for that.
What I'm saying is that if we're not careful, we can lose ourselves.
We can lose pieces of our character.
We can lose touch with who we are.
JEFF: We start becoming more like machines.
And I think that's an important question.
Is that actually our goal?
Do we really want to compete with machines?
Machines never sleep.
They never forget.
They don't need food.
They don't need rest.
They don't operate the way we do.
What we're discovering is that intelligence may not have been humanity's most important defining characteristic after all.
We aren't human doings.
We're human beings.
As long as we're embodied, there will always be things to do.
We'll build businesses.
We'll create.
We'll raise families.
We'll record podcasts.
We'll contribute to society.
We'll eat.
We'll sleep.
There will always be meaningful work available.
But we were never meant to define ourselves solely by output.
We were meant to be.
And I think that's what your question is really pointing toward.
Somewhere along the way, we forgot how to be neighbors.
We forgot how to have conversations.
We forgot how to spend time together without a specific objective.
We forgot how to sit and talk about life.
I think we're going to be brought back to that.
AI is full of paradoxes.
But one of those paradoxes is that it may ultimately bring us back to our humanity.
When a machine can do many of the things we once defined ourselves by, we're left with something deeper.
We're left with our being.
And I believe that's exactly where we're being called back to.

INTERVIEW – PART 10 (INTUITION, CLARITY, AND REHUMANIZING OURSELVES)
TONY: While we're talking about values, wisdom, and judgment, another word comes to mind:
Intuition.
My understanding of AI is that it's essentially a massive library.
It's searching through books, information, and data, then returning answers based on what it finds.
It can certainly provide recommendations and suggest actions based on patterns it identifies.
But what about intuition?
How do we use intuition to make decisions in an age where information is everywhere?
JEFF: Like you mentioned a few minutes ago, our bodies contain some of the most remarkable technology that exists.
We experience that technology through feelings, intuition, instincts, and gut reactions.
While AI is certainly more than a simple reservoir of information, one way to think about it is this:
Imagine asking AI to read every book in a library and then identify the three most interesting patterns across all the information.
You and I could never read every book in the library.
Even if we could, we couldn't remember everything.
What AI does exceptionally well is identify patterns.
It gives us a macro-level perspective.
It helps us see connections and trends that might otherwise be impossible to recognize.
For example, we can ask:
What patterns from history might help us understand this moment?
What can previous technological revolutions teach us about the present?
AI can help illuminate those patterns.
But intuition, emotion, and feeling remain critically important.
These are highly advanced human technologies that we don't fully understand.
They're clues.
They're signals.
And they help guide us toward the path that's right for us as individuals and toward the path that's best for humanity in an age of highly intelligent machines.
TONY: Exactly.
One final question.
With everything happening so quickly, how do we reclaim our clarity?
How do we regain control of ourselves?
You've talked about presence.
Is that the answer, or is there more?
JEFF: I think what I describe in the book is a process of rehumanizing ourselves.
That's really what all of this comes down to.
It's about reconnecting with our emotions.
It's about looking inward.
It's about rediscovering what makes us human.
There are many practices that can help us do that.
For me personally, meditation has been transformative.
I began meditating regularly after the governor's race, about six years ago.
People often think there's a right way to meditate.
There isn't.
Simply sit quietly for ten minutes a day.
Try it for a month.
Practice the habit.
Attempt to clear your mind.
You'll probably be terrible at it at first.
That's okay.
Everyone is.
Just keep practicing.
Meditation is a wonderful tool.
Flow activities are another.
Especially those connected to nature.
I'm a wake surfer.
I ski.
I mountain bike.
When I can get into nature and reconnect with my body, it feels magical.
Yoga can be helpful.
Hot and cold exposure practices can be helpful.
I also discuss a couple of stories in the book involving the wise and legal use of plant medicine as a tool for growth and self-discovery when approached responsibly.
Ultimately, I think we're already equipped with what we need.
We simply need to use those tools wisely.
We need to build healthy habits and consistent practices.
That's a challenge for all of us.
It's certainly a challenge for me.
But it's something we can improve every day.
Another practice that's helped me tremendously is reading.
I finished one or two books just last week.
Fewer people are reading books today, which makes reading even more valuable.
I read physical books.
I listen to audiobooks.
My own book is available on Audible as well.
I love listening while I'm doing other things.
I think it's important to stay connected to both modern wisdom and ancient wisdom.
For example, one of the books I'm listening to right now is the Bhagavad Gita, one of the most sacred texts in Hinduism, written thousands of years ago.
There's incredible value in connecting with ideas that have endured across centuries.
So keep learning.
Keep growing.
Stay connected to wisdom, both old and new.
Those resources remain available to all of us.
TONY: Thank you so much.


OUTRO
TONY: Once again, this is Jeff Burningham.
Today we've been talking about human-first leadership and becoming wise in the age of AI.
I encourage you to visit JeffBurningham.com and learn more about his book, The Last Book Written by a Human.
Jeff, this has been an incredibly thought-provoking conversation.
JEFF: Thank you, Tony.
I appreciate that.
Like I said, I wrote this book as a conversation starter.
I hope people will read it or listen to it and then continue discussing these ideas with friends, family members, coworkers, and their communities.
You can also find me on social media at Jeff Burningham.
I have mixed feelings about social media, but I'm trying to meet people where they are.
I'd love to hear what people think after they engage with the book.
Let's keep the conversation going.
TONY: Wonderful.
Thank you again for joining us.
JEFF: Thank you.
TONY: Jeff, that was absolutely wonderful.
I really enjoyed this conversation.
It's thought-provoking, and honestly, I'm still processing a lot of what we discussed.
What a topic.
Guys, if you enjoyed this episode, share it with your friends.
Tell them about Jeff.
Tell them about his website.
Tell them about his book, The Last Book Written by a Human.
Look at what he's accomplished and the ideas he's exploring.
What's fascinating is that many of these concepts aren't actually complicated.
In many ways, they're the basics.
The same principles many of us understood as children.
Connection.
Relationships.
Presence.
Awareness.
Community.
These fundamentals still matter.
In fact, they may matter now more than ever.
So check out the book.
Visit Jeff's website.
Connect with him on social media.
And wherever you're listening, please follow The Tony DUrso Show.
Your support helps us continue bringing incredible guests and meaningful conversations to entrepreneurs around the world.
Let's take these ideas and use them to help move you forward on your journey to success.
Thanks for listening.
Remember, just take action. Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds. Sow good seeds, do good deeds. And I'll see you on the next episode.