INTRO / PRE-SHOW MESSAGE:

TONY: Hey, everyone, this is Tony. Before we start today's conversation, I want to give you a quick heads-up. At the very end of this episode, I'm going to share a piece of music that's very close to my heart: my newest hit song. If you've ever seen those four words on every coin and every dollar in the US, hearing them on a song gives them a whole new weight. So stick around to the very end. I can't wait for you to hear it.

Welcome back to the podcast. Now, every generation has its defining shift. And in business leadership, that shift is happening right now. Guys, you know this. For decades, companies were built around compliance and command. You had ten, twenty, twenty-five-year strategies. They were built on performance reviews, which—being in the corporate world for three decades, let me tell you—those things felt more like punishment than progress.

But today's workforce, guys, you know this is so different, especially in an AI-driven, hybrid world. That really craves something different. We want purpose, autonomy, and growth. Well, my guest today, Chris Hunsicker, is one of the bold voices leading this transformation. With years of experience guiding organizations through what I call cultural reinvention—it's probably what he calls it, too—he helps leaders move from managing people to coaching culture.

We're going to unpack what that means. We're going to talk about why traditional leadership models are breaking down and how you can create high-performance teams that thrive without micromanagement. Now, again, my three decades in corporate says that's impossible. Chris says it's possible. So guys, if you've ever wondered why old leadership tactics just aren't working anymore, or how to build a resilient, self-motivated team in today's extremely fast-changing world, this is a conversation you don't want to miss. Let's begin. Let's go. Bring him on.

INTERVIEW – PART 1 (THE SHIFT FROM THERAPY TO CONSULTING):
TONY: Hi, Chris, welcome to the Tony Durso Show.

CHRIS: Hello, Tony. Thank you for having me on. I'm kind of excited to be here.

TONY: I'm very excited because I have so many questions. When I first found out about you, I was like, "Oh, I’ve got to ask him this. I’ve got to ask him that." It's all about leading beyond tradition. It's a new world. You know, there's modern leaders out there, and they're building teams, and there's AI going on. But let's start here, Chris. Before we dig into this, tell us your backstory. When did you realize that the traditional leadership model simply wasn't working anymore?

CHRIS: It wasn't a moment where it all clicked for me. It really was a series of events, and it does have to do with how I got started. I began as a marriage and family therapist. I worked with adolescent drug addicts, and my job was to work with them, counsel, and do therapy. I loved it; it was almost a calling for me.

But five years into my run as a therapist, our hospital was bought by a large corporation and they closed it down. They basically said we could make eight percent more money with cardiac rehab than drug rehab and shut me down. This involved one hundred and fifty kids in aftercare. It was a pretty intense thing.

One of the vice presidents of a major corporation at the time had a son in my program. Once the program shut down, she called me and she said, "Chris, is there any way you could do for our company what you did for my family? Because my company is more screwed up than our family." I said, "I'm not really a consultant. I'm not sure." She said, "We'll pay you." At the time, I had four children. My wife was a stay-at-home mom and we had no income. I was highly motivated to make this work.

I went in and I met with the CEO—I’d use the name of the company, except you'd know it. I met with the CEO, and he spent forty minutes telling me how awesome his company was. By the time I got done, I said, "Listen, I’ve got to ask you: if your company is so awesome, why are you going to pay me two thousand dollars a day to come in and help you do consulting work on it?"

And he just lost it. I mean, yelling, screaming, and foaming at the mouth. And I said, "So you struggle with emotional self-regulation," which really set him off. This went on for minutes. Finally, I said, "I need to ask you, is this how you act in front of your people?" He started yelling at me a little bit more, and I said, "So how many marriages have you been through?" which really set him off. It had been two more.

I said, "Let me summarize this for you. You have a 'good news to the top' organization where nobody tells you the truth because they're all afraid of you, and you only hear good news. So you make really poor strategic decisions, which is what's creating the problems," which set him off again. When he finally got all done with that, I said, "Listen, I don't need to be here. I'm here to help you out. I interviewed some of your people. I've spent some time with you. I can tell you that your culture has some beautiful elements to it, but you lack emotional self-regulation. You use a lot of command and control, and it's destroying your trust with people. You're like the husband that says, 'Go ahead, and marry me. I'm really stable. I'm good. I'm great with kids. I have good income. But twice a year I'm going to Vegas and have an affair. But don't worry, it's just sex.' No it isn't. It's a lack of trust. And that's the way you show up."

After an hour, he finally calmed down and he said, "I really need this, don't I?" I said, "Only if you want your company to grow." I didn't realize as a consultant you were supposed to tell the CEO how great they were and lie to them. I just grew up as a therapist telling people the truth, and no one had ever talked to him that way. Once he got done with all of his craziness, he sat down and he said, "I think we need to do this." Well, I spent a year with that company doing a culture change and working with all of their mid-level managers. At the end of that year, that's when it dawned on me: I'm way better at helping good people become better than sick people become healthy. That was the transition point.

INTERVIEW – PART 2 (OUTDATED HABITS & BLAME):
TONY: Wow, what a story. I love how straight up you are and how you just call it like it is. We could have used you in some of the companies that I've been in, I tell you that right now. It was either the CEO or whoever was in charge—it was their way or the highway. Not even a joke, guys. Whatever kind of workplace you were in back in the day, it was like that. You had to watch how you did things because you wanted your job. If you didn't, then you were straight up honest, perhaps, and you wouldn't be there for long.

This really breaks the mold, Chris. It's a game-changer how you help sort out companies. Let's talk about outdated habits that you see are still there in the workplace holding organizations back.

CHRIS: Sure. I'll put it this way: I do a lot of work with car dealerships. I did a bunch of work with Ford Motor Company; I ran their global coaching program for about five years. I was sitting in a very large dealership group down in Florida with his whole C-suite group. He looked at me and he said, "So, what do you think?" I said, "Permission to speak freely?" He goes, "Yeah." I said, "You're ideally suited to compete in a market that no longer exists. If 1996 ever comes back, you are going to kick butt and take names. Other than that, your sole value is the real estate."

There was a lot of quietness in the room, and he said, to his credit, "I've known that for years, but I don't know what else to do." That's the key that I find. As human beings, think of this in your marriage, with your children, or in your workplace: when we get to the end of our skillset, we blame and we demand.

Think of it in a marriage situation. My wife is having a hard time, and I run out of patience. I get to the end of my skillset to be patient or empathic, and then I start blaming her for being demanding. It’s dysfunctional. I’m an educated blamer. Most people spend their lives going to seminars and reading books not to become better, but to simply become more educated in their blaming.

The fact of the matter is, my wife isn't crazy; I've reached the end of my skillset. Rather than acknowledge that I need to change and grow, I blame or demand. The very first chapter in my book starts off with: "In order for things to get better, you need to get better." Nearly every manager I've ever worked with has said to me, "If I just had better people..." Think about it. If I had better kids, I could be such a great dad. If I had a less crazy wife, I could be a great husband. As a manager, if I just had better people, then I could excel. No, the problem is you. You've reached the end of your skillset, so you blame everybody else for not being good enough.

It’s not just an outdated mindset; there is that command and control—the "I’m in charge" attitude. But what you have now is this Gen Z group of people. They're not going to fight you on it; they're just going to walk away. For years, I've taught people that the workforce is a volunteer workforce. We had little handcuffs around healthcare and benefits, but even those are getting loose. If I walk in as a Gen Z employee and you start doing that command and control crazy stuff on me, I'm not going to yell at you. I'm just going to walk away. We say they're "ghosting" us. They don't come back because you're an idiot, but nobody really wants to have that conversation.

The other thing is this idea that my job as a manager is to spend my entire time obsessing about what you do wrong. All the research and data—if you look at Positive Psychology, stoic philosophy, or Buddhism—it’s all the same thing: what you focus on, you get more of. Your ability to catch people doing things right, to build those dopamine habit loops around what actually works, is probably the biggest shift. If I could give any manager one skillset, I would give them the ability to shift from focusing on things gone wrong to things gone right.

SPONSOR BREAK – NORDVPN:
TONY: Well, first of all, I can't stop laughing. Having worked so many years for so many bosses, you just hit the nail on the head. We need you and more people like you, Chris, in the world. Hopefully, we can change a few minds.

By the way, this is Chris Hunsicker. We're talking about leading beyond tradition and how modern leaders are building teams that thrive in the AI age. You can find him at chrishunsicker.com. That is C-H-R-I-S and H-U-N-S-I-C-K-E-R dot com.

Before we go any further, I want to pause on something practical. A lot of what we're talking about today—leadership, judgment, decision-making—it happens online now. Banking, work, communication, even moments of quiet thinking at a coffee shop. Most people don't realize how exposed their digital lives actually are. That's why I want to take a minute to talk about something I personally use.

As entrepreneurs, we live online. We check bank accounts, manage businesses, shop, travel, and work from public Wi-Fi more than we probably should. Whether we think about it or not, that leaves our digital lives wide open. That's why I use NordVPN. The peace of mind it brings really matters.

Here's what it does: NordVPN creates an encrypted tunnel between your device and the internet. That means hackers, snoopers, and even your own internet provider can't see what you're doing online. It's like pulling the blinds down on your digital home. You get privacy, security, and control.

What I appreciate most is how simple it is. One click and you're protected. You can use it on up to ten devices—phone, laptop, tablet. It's fast enough that you don't notice a slowdown. I don't travel as much as I used to, but when I'm on public Wi-Fi, I like knowing my data is protected. And yes, there are practical bonuses, too. A VPN can help you access better deals online or avoid regional price differences when shopping or booking travel. Make a note of that.

If you care about privacy, your security, or you just want to move through the digital world with less friction, NordVPN is a smart move. It's risk-free with a thirty-day money-back guarantee. Just go to nordvpn.com/tony and protect yourself today. That's N-O-R-D-V-P-N dot com slash T-O-N-Y. (nordvpn.com/tony).

And now let's get back to this great conversation with Chris.

INTERVIEW – PART 3 (THE PERFORMANCE TRAP & MOTIVATIONAL INTERVIEWING:
TONY: So many things going through my head. I want to talk about the "performance trap." I've been through performance reviews; I've given them. When you say to a person who's lazy that they could improve a little bit—you give them a four on a scale of one to five—they get upset because they think they’re a five, when they should really get a one. The person's own point of view is so different from what's real. You have to motivate them, but you can't just say, "You're doing a great job, can you do better?" It's a performance trap. I'm going to leave it to you to help us solve it.

CHRIS: Let’s look at this through the vein of "things gone right" versus "things gone wrong." The core dilemma is this: how do I separate your behavior and performance from you as an individual, but deliver that message in a way that you can see it, act on it, and change it?

Performance reviews are like customer satisfaction scores. They were invented by people at the corporation who have no idea what's going on in the business but need a number for a spreadsheet so they can judge you. It’s a game and a lie. Performance reviews are an extension of that. You've been to stores with a terrible customer experience but a great score because it's a game.

Now, as we dive into AI, this is great because bots are starting to look at everything everybody has ever said about you. On your website, if you say you’re the best but you aren't, they deprioritize you because authenticity is more important than marketing. That’s a metaphor for what we’re talking about.

A performance review is an old mindset. What you're really looking for is how to have a conversation about where you're really at and what we can do together to get you elsewhere. One tool you can use is called "motivational interviewing." It looks at the difference between where you are and where you want to be.

If I ask you, "On a scale of one to ten, where are you at?" most people say a seven or eight. A bad manager says, "How do we get you to a nine?" That never gives good results. Motivational interviewing takes the scale the other way. I say, "Tony, you gave yourself a seven. Why didn't you pick a four?"

Then you’re going to go, "Well, because I do this and I do this..." You start listing the behaviors you do when you're at your best. Now I have the perfect recipe for what drives you. I can help you get to a nine by helping you do those behaviors more often. Why didn't you pick a four? You share why, and now I have an honest dialogue with authenticity and clarity instead of this gaming political stuff. You can learn motivational interviewing in ten minutes. When asking someone where they’re at, go down, not up. Listen to what they say, find behavioral things, and lean into those.

INTERVIEW – PART 4 (HEROES VS. GUIDES):
TONY: I’m picking up on a shift from management—telling people what to do—to coaching. Is that happening now?

CHRIS: It's happening at an accelerated rate. The challenge is that some people try to take command and control, put it in a coaching coat, and call it coaching. That's not coaching.

One of the great traps for managers and parents is the "hero complex." I want to step in, I want to defend my people, and they end up burning themselves out. If you look at mythology, what most people need is the guide, not the hero. We need to be Obi-Wan Kenobi, not Luke Skywalker.

You are the hero of your story. My job is to be Obi-Wan, to teach you how to use the Force to help you figure out what's already there. I tell everybody I coach: "You are not broken. You don't need to heal your inner child." When people ask what I do, I tell them this: "As a coach, my job is to help you figure out what you do when you're at your best, how to do that more often, and finally, how to do it on demand and under pressure."

A coach starts with the premise that you already know how to be excellent in some areas of your life. Let’s find that and help you do it elsewhere. Your ability as a leader to have frequent, high-quality conversations defines trust and "discretionary effort." I can pay for your hands to do a task, but I can't buy your heart. You only give your heart because you feel seen, heard, and understood. You can’t pay for passion, but you can create space where people will willingly give it.

SPONSOR BREAK – MONARCH MONEY:
TONY: Before we move on, I want to pause for a moment. A lot of what Chris and I talk about comes down to clarity—stepping back, seeing the whole picture, and making better decisions instead of reacting in the moment. That doesn't just apply to leadership; it applies to life and especially to money. When things feel scattered, stress creeps in. But when you can see clearly, you lead yourself better.

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MY FACET MINUTE (LEADERSHIP VS. INFORMATION):
TONY: One thing that stands out in this conversation is how often leaders confuse information with leadership. Today, tools and AI can give you answers in seconds, but none of that replaces judgment, presence, or emotional maturity under pressure. Leadership isn't about having better answers; it's about creating the conditions where people bring their best effort willingly. If you're leading people right now, the question isn't "Do I have the right tools?" It's "Am I helping people do their best work, or am I just demanding results?"

INTERVIEW – PART 5 (AI VS. HUMAN CONNECTION):
TONY: Chris, I want to ask about AI. I can type into AI "how do I do this?" and it gives me a plan. I do it. It doesn't matter if my heart is in it. If AI can give the instructions, what’s all this about management and coaching? It seems like a different world.

CHRIS: This may be the best question I've heard all month. Robert Sutton wrote a book called Good Boss, Bad Boss. One of the beliefs is: "Because I am in a position of power, I am in danger of being an insensitive jerk and not knowing it." The more you know you're right, the more you need to listen to why you're wrong.

The danger with AI is not what people think. The more we use AI to free up menial tasks, the more we can focus on connection. They said the same thing about the radio, the TV, and the internet—that it would destroy families. Every time, it gives us opportunities to connect more deeply.

Knowledge is not power; execution is power. You can ask ChatGPT how to get a date or make love, and none of it helps you do it better. There is an element of connection. You’re Italian, right? There is magic to beautiful food. When food is made with heart and love, you can taste it. I could give you the ingredients and the list, but it doesn't change someone who understands the food.

If you believe food ends at the last line of the recipe, you should never walk in the kitchen. If you believe management ends at the last line of the chat, you should never be in leadership. AI narrows the time from thought to action, but once you get that insight, you need to execute in the real world. It’s the marriage between emotional intelligence and artificial intelligence.

INTERVIEW – PART 6 (THE FIVE MISSING SKILLS):
TONY: So, what does a high-performance team look like today? How does it operate?

CHRIS: A high-performance culture has a sense of mission, trust, accountability, and connection. You’re trying to create an atmosphere where I'm allowed to make mistakes. I'm accountable for them, but the relationship is repaired.

There's "shame-based coaching" where people should be perfect, which is full of crap because nobody is perfect. You want people to "fail forward." But we've become risk-averse. Hewlett-Packard created "Skunkworks" because innovation was stifled at the mothership.

In a high-performing team, if you're being selfish, you're held accountable. If you're failing in the service of the customer, you're rewarded. We often reward results, not effort. There are five core skills the new workforce is missing:

Psychological Resilience: The ability to take a punch and keep going.

Self-Efficacy: Moving from self-esteem (feeling good) to knowing you can do hard things through work and tutors.

Resilience (Patience): Understanding things don't happen overnight.

A Servant’s Heart: Finding joy in putting someone else's needs ahead of your own.

Emotional Stamina: Doing what needs to be done whether you feel like it or not.

You give me a group with those five skills, and I’ve got a high-performance team.

SPONSOR BREAK – SHOPIFY:
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INTERVIEW – PART 7 (THE DOMINO PRINCIPLE & THE WAKE):
TONY: AI can do the work, but it can't "taste the food." How do we use systems properly without being overly reductionist?

CHRIS: A boat always leaves a wake. One side is Results, the other is Relationship. If you only focus on results, you fail. If you only focus on relationship, you're a country club. Truth is found in proving contraries.

Under pressure, I default to Results—I go into "warrior mode." My wife defaults to Relationship. She has spent forty years as my Obi-Wan, teaching me how to find the balance.

To scale and make sense of this, use the Domino Principle. Find the "first domino"—the one issue that, if solved, makes everything else easier or go away. When losing a war, narrow the battlefield. Navy SEALs call it "front sight focus." We don't lack information; we lack clarity.

Ask yourself: "What is my biggest concern right now?" Then find the one that, if fixed, solves the rest. My job as a leader is to build enough behavioral flexibility to meet you where you're at and take you to a better place. If after five years of working for me, you drink more and get divorced, that’s my wake. If you solve problems faster and are more authentic, that’s a different wake.

TONY: Chris, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. This goes very deep, and I appreciate you sharing that with us.

CHRIS: My pleasure. You have a great day.

CLOSING MESSAGE:
TONY: There you go, guys. Wow. So much good advice. Just be human. You're talking to humans. Realize that people are trying to get something done. Share this with your friends. Follow the show; it helps us bring more amazing guests. Remember, just take action. Success awaits those who persevere. Sow good seeds, do good deeds, and I'll see you on the next episode.

SONG INTRO & LYRICS – “IN GOD WE TRUST”
TONY: Before we close, here is my brand-new song, inspired by four powerful words: "In God We Trust."

Walking by a bus stop

Not even a buck

Feeling everything is just plain old stuck

A dime on the ground

I held it to the light

What it said restored my sight

In God we trust, the words shine true

Guiding my steps and all I do

Through trials and storms I find my place

In God we trust, amazing grace

Yeah, I took the next bus

Though my pocket had no fare

I told the driver my life with a humble prayer

He gave a smile and said, "Go on, son"

I knew then that my hope had begun

In God we trust, the words shine true

Guiding my steps and all I do

Through trials and storms I find my place

In God we trust, amazing grace

Oh, I found a diner

With a crowd at the door

And asked the kind lady if I could do more

She smiled and said, "You can stay if you try"

With a dime in my hand, I whispered on high

When the road feels heavy and hope runs thin

That coin reminds me where faith begins

One small coin, yeah

The truth so wide

In God we trust forever my guide

In God we trust, the words shine true

Guiding my steps and all I do

Through trials and storms I find my place

In God we trust, amazing grace

Forever we sing, in God we trust

Forever we say, in God we trust

FINAL CLOSING / SIGN-OFF:
TONY: And that is "In God We Trust," a song that truly came to me as a gift from God. I hope you enjoy it. This song is part of my very first album, which is now out. If you want to hear more, visit tonydurso.com/music. That’s T-O-N-Y-D-U-R-S-O dot com slash M U S I C. Thank you for listening.

Song Sheet: In God We Trust
By Tony Durso

(Verse 1) Walking by a bus stop, not even a buck, Feeling everything is just plain old stuck. A dime on the ground, I held it to the light, what it said restored my sight.

(Chorus) In God we trust, the words shine true, guiding my steps and all I do. Through trials and storms I find my place, In God we trust, amazing grace.

(Verse 2) Yeah, I took the next bus, though my pocket had no fare, I told the driver my life with a humble prayer. He gave a smile and said, "Go on, son," I knew then that my hope had begun.

(Chorus) In God we trust, the words shine true, guiding my steps and all I do. Through trials and storms I find my place, In God we trust, amazing grace.

(Bridge) Oh, I found a diner with a crowd at the door, and asked the kind lady if I could do more. She smiled and said, "You can stay if you try," With a dime in my hand, I whispered on high. When the road feels heavy and hope runs thin, that coin reminds me where faith begins. One small coin, yeah, the truth so wide, In God we trust forever my guide.

(Chorus) In God we trust, the words shine true, guiding my steps and all I do. Through trials and storms I find my place, In God we trust, amazing grace.

(Outro) Forever we sing, in God we trust. Forever we say, in God we trust.